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#1 Nov. 27, 2005 22:48:59

Oliver G.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


Hi *!

I updated the table with the comments in the thread.
First of all: YES, these won't work as operator:

- "<-" means "less than the negative value of"
- ":" collides with the ternary

BUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also about what you
would like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory whitespace would
be introduced for the ternary BUT this is very very bad.

Regarding the other suggestions, ":::" seems to be something almost
everybody could at least live with.

OLLi


Updated table follows:Second update:

Namespace Operators
========================================================================================================================
Name |s| %% |( : )| ::: | ::< | :< |(<- )| :> | \ | -> |
\\ | <:: | <: | .. | | | |
---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
Robert Deaton |-| +0 | | -1 | | | -2 | +1 | | |
| | | | | | |
Alan Knowles |-| | +1 | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
Greg Beaver |-| | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | | +0 | +0 | +1 |
+1 | +0 | +0 | | | | |
Jessie Hernandez |-| +1 | +1 | +2 | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
Matt Friedman |-| | | -1 | | | +1 | | -1 | |
| +1 | +1 | | | | |
David Zülke |-| | | +2 | | | +1 | -1 | | |
| | -1 | | | | |
Oliver Grätz |*| +2 | +2 | +1 | -1 | +0 | -2 | +0 | -2 | -2 |
-2 | +0 | +0 | -2 | | | |
Matthew C. Kavanagh |-| -1 | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
Jasper Bryant-Greene |-| | | | | -1 | +1 | -1 | | |
| | -1 | | | | |
Eric Coleman |-| -1 | +2 | | | | +1 | +1 | -1 | |
| | | | | | |
Christian Stocker |-| | | | | -1 | | -1 | +1 | |
| | -1 | | | | |
Stanislav Malyshev |-| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
Jared Williams |-| | | | | | | | | +1 |
| | | | | | |
Jason Garber |-| | | | | | | | | |
| | | +1 | | | |
Nicolas Bérard Nault |-| -2 | | | | | +2 | | +1 | |
| | | | | | |
Sara Golemon |-| | | +1 | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
Jacques Marneweck |*| -1 | -1 | +2 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 |
+0 | -1 | -1 | +0 | | | |
Sean Coates |-| | | +1 | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
|-| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
|-| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
|-| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
|-| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
sum (2 counts 2) | | -2 | +5 | +7 | -2 | -3 | +1 | -2 | -3 | -1 |
-1 | 0 | -3 | -1 | | | |
sum (2 counts 1) | | -2 | +3 | +4 | -2 | -3 | +2 | -2 | -2 | 0 |
0 | 0 | -3 | 0 | | | |
sum (counting +/-) | | -1 | +4 | +5 | -1 | -1 | +2 | 0 | -1 | 0 |
+1 | +2 | -1 | +1 | | | |
========================================================================================================================

Notes:
- I took
+2 as "likes"
+1 as "is fine with"
+0 as "can live with"
-1 as "dislikes"
-2 as "hates"
empty for "no comment, no opinion, don't care"
- Please don't enter anything other than these values!
- The "s" column stands for "self-filled". I compiled the current
table from the comments in this newsgroup, so perhaps I didn't
get their comments right.
- The operators : <- -> could make big problems with the parser.
More complaints to follow. *g*
- Feel free to add new suggestions to the right.
- If you add your name at the bottom, please copy the free line
so the next one also has a free one.
- Do only edit the votes in *your* line!
- Correct the sums if you post.
- Please post as attachment!

If some of the operators are definitely impossible to implement,
please put the headline of column in parentheses (as in "(<-)")
ans add a note why this operator can't be done (Hi Marcus *g*).--
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#2 Nov. 28, 2005 06:28:34

Andrei Z.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


Gah! I have to squint and count the colons in something likeSystem:::Socket:::Pair::open(). Yikes.My vote is for \.

-Andrei


On Nov 27, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Oliver Grätz wrote:Hi *!

I updated the table with the comments in the thread.
First of all: YES, these won't work as operator:

- "<-" means "less than the negative value of"
- ":" collides with the ternaryBUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also aboutwhat youwould like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory whitespacewouldbe introduced for the ternary BUT this is very very bad.

Regarding the other suggestions, ":::" seems to be something almost
everybody could at least live with.

OLLi


Updated table follows:
Second update:

Namespace Operators========================================================================================================================Name |s| %% |( : )| ::: | ::< | :< |(<- )| :> |\ | -> | \\ | <:: | <: | .. | | | |---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+Robert Deaton |-| +0 | | -1 | | | -2 | +1| | | | | | | | | |Alan Knowles |-| | +1 | | | | || | | | | | | | | |Greg Beaver |-| | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | | +0 |+0 | +1 | +1 | +0 | +0 | | | | |Jessie Hernandez |-| +1 | +1 | +2 | | | || | | | | | | | | |Matt Friedman |-| | | -1 | | | +1 | |-1 | | | +1 | +1 | | | | |David Zülke |-| | | +2 | | | +1 | -1| | | | | -1 | | | | |Oliver Grätz |*| +2 | +2 | +1 | -1 | +0 | -2 | +0 |-2 | -2 | -2 | +0 | +0 | -2 | | | |Matthew C. Kavanagh |-| -1 | | | | | || | | | | | | | | |Jasper Bryant-Greene |-| | | | | -1 | +1 | -1| | | | | -1 | | | | |Eric Coleman |-| -1 | +2 | | | | +1 | +1 |-1 | | | | | | | | |Christian Stocker |-| | | | | -1 | | -1 |+1 | | | | -1 | | | | |Stanislav Malyshev |-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | |Jared Williams |-| | | | | | || | +1 | | | | | | | |Jason Garber |-| | | | | | || | | | | | +1 | | | |Nicolas Bérard Nault |-| -2 | | | | | +2 | |+1 | | | | | | | | |Sara Golemon |-| | | +1 | | | || | | | | | | | | |Jacques Marneweck |*| -1 | -1 | +2 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 |-1 | -1 | +0 | -1 | -1 | +0 | | | |Sean Coates |-| | | +1 | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | |---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+sum (2 counts 2) | | -2 | +5 | +7 | -2 | -3 | +1 | -2 |-3 | -1 | -1 | 0 | -3 | -1 | | | |sum (2 counts 1) | | -2 | +3 | +4 | -2 | -3 | +2 | -2 |-2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | -3 | 0 | | | |sum (counting +/-) | | -1 | +4 | +5 | -1 | -1 | +2 | 0 |-1 | 0 | +1 | +2 | -1 | +1 | | | |========================================================================================================================Notes:
- I took
+2 as "likes"
+1 as "is fine with"
+0 as "can live with"
-1 as "dislikes"
-2 as "hates"
empty for "no comment, no opinion, don't care"
- Please don't enter anything other than these values!
- The "s" column stands for "self-filled". I compiled the current
table from the comments in this newsgroup, so perhaps I didn't
get their comments right.
- The operators : <- -> could make big problems with the parser.
More complaints to follow. *g*
- Feel free to add new suggestions to the right.
- If you add your name at the bottom, please copy the free line
so the next one also has a free one.
- Do only edit the votes in *your* line!
- Correct the sums if you post.
- Please post as attachment!

If some of the operators are definitely impossible to implement,
please put the headline of column in parentheses (as in "(<-)")
ans add a note why this operator can't be done (Hi Marcus *g*).

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit:http://www.php.net/unsub.php--
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#3 Nov. 28, 2005 08:14:12

Jani T.
Registered: 2009-11-02
Reputation: +  0  -
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


Oh, I didn't know you could nest these things..
-1000 for whole namespace idea: PREFIX!

--Jani


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Andrei Zmievski wrote:Gah! I have to squint and count the colons in something likeSystem:::Socket:::Pair::open(). Yikes.My vote is for \.

-Andrei


On Nov 27, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Oliver Grätz wrote:Hi *!

I updated the table with the comments in the thread.
First of all: YES, these won't work as operator:

- "<-" means "less than the negative value of"
- ":" collides with the ternary

BUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also about what you
would like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory whitespace would
be introduced for the ternary BUT this is very very bad.

Regarding the other suggestions, ":::" seems to be something almost
everybody could at least live with.

OLLi


Updated table follows:
Second update:

Namespace Operators========================================================================================================================Name |s| %% |( : )| ::: | ::< | :< |(<- )| :> | \ | ->| \\ | <:: | <: | .. | | | |---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+Robert Deaton |-| +0 | | -1 | | | -2 | +1 | || | | | | | | |Alan Knowles |-| | +1 | | | | | | || | | | | | | |Greg Beaver |-| | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | | +0 | +0 | +1| +1 | +0 | +0 | | | | |Jessie Hernandez |-| +1 | +1 | +2 | | | | | || | | | | | | |Matt Friedman |-| | | -1 | | | +1 | | -1 || | +1 | +1 | | | | |David Zülke |-| | | +2 | | | +1 | -1 | || | | -1 | | | | |Oliver Grätz |*| +2 | +2 | +1 | -1 | +0 | -2 | +0 | -2 | -2| -2 | +0 | +0 | -2 | | | |Matthew C. Kavanagh |-| -1 | | | | | | | || | | | | | | |Jasper Bryant-Greene |-| | | | | -1 | +1 | -1 | || | | -1 | | | | |Eric Coleman |-| -1 | +2 | | | | +1 | +1 | -1 || | | | | | | |Christian Stocker |-| | | | | -1 | | -1 | +1 || | | -1 | | | | |Stanislav Malyshev |-| | | | | | | | || | | | | | | |Jared Williams |-| | | | | | | | | +1| | | | | | | |Jason Garber |-| | | | | | | | || | | | +1 | | | |Nicolas Bérard Nault |-| -2 | | | | | +2 | | +1 || | | | | | | |Sara Golemon |-| | | +1 | | | | | || | | | | | | |Jacques Marneweck |*| -1 | -1 | +2 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1| +0 | -1 | -1 | +0 | | | |Sean Coates |-| | | +1 | | | | | || | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | | | || | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | | | || | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | | | || | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | | | || | | | | | | |---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+sum (2 counts 2) | | -2 | +5 | +7 | -2 | -3 | +1 | -2 | -3 | -1| -1 | 0 | -3 | -1 | | | |sum (2 counts 1) | | -2 | +3 | +4 | -2 | -3 | +2 | -2 | -2 | 0| 0 | 0 | -3 | 0 | | | |sum (counting +/-) | | -1 | +4 | +5 | -1 | -1 | +2 | 0 | -1 | 0| +1 | +2 | -1 | +1 | | | |========================================================================================================================Notes:
- I took
+2 as "likes"
+1 as "is fine with"
+0 as "can live with"
-1 as "dislikes"
-2 as "hates"
empty for "no comment, no opinion, don't care"
- Please don't enter anything other than these values!
- The "s" column stands for "self-filled". I compiled the current
table from the comments in this newsgroup, so perhaps I didn't
get their comments right.
- The operators : <- -> could make big problems with the parser.
More complaints to follow. *g*
- Feel free to add new suggestions to the right.
- If you add your name at the bottom, please copy the free line
so the next one also has a free one.
- Do only edit the votes in *your* line!
- Correct the sums if you post.
- Please post as attachment!

If some of the operators are definitely impossible to implement,
please put the headline of column in parentheses (as in "(<-)")
ans add a note why this operator can't be done (Hi Marcus *g*).

--
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Give me your money at @ <http://pecl.php.net/wishlist.php/sniper>
Donating money may make me happier and friendlier for a limited period!
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#4 Nov. 28, 2005 08:45:51

David Z.
Registered: 2009-11-02
Reputation: +  0  -
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


Why would you have to do that. You only have to look at thelast :: / ::: sequence. It's not that hard.- David


Am 28.11.2005 um 07:27 schrieb Andrei Zmievski:Gah! I have to squint and count the colons in something likeSystem:::Socket:::Pair::open(). Yikes.My vote is for \.

-Andrei


On Nov 27, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Oliver Grätz wrote:Hi *!

I updated the table with the comments in the thread.
First of all: YES, these won't work as operator:

- "<-" means "less than the negative value of"
- ":" collides with the ternaryBUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also aboutwhat youwould like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory whitespacewouldbe introduced for the ternary BUT this is very very bad.

Regarding the other suggestions, ":::" seems to be something almost
everybody could at least live with.

OLLi


Updated table follows:
Second update:

Namespace Operators========================================================================================================================Name |s| %% |( : )| ::: | ::< | :< |(<- )| :> |\ | -> | \\ | <:: | <: | .. | | | |---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+Robert Deaton |-| +0 | | -1 | | | -2 | +1| | | | | | | | | |Alan Knowles |-| | +1 | | | | || | | | | | | | | |Greg Beaver |-| | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | | +0 |+0 | +1 | +1 | +0 | +0 | | | | |Jessie Hernandez |-| +1 | +1 | +2 | | | || | | | | | | | | |Matt Friedman |-| | | -1 | | | +1 | |-1 | | | +1 | +1 | | | | |David Zülke |-| | | +2 | | | +1 | -1| | | | | -1 | | | | |Oliver Grätz |*| +2 | +2 | +1 | -1 | +0 | -2 | +0 |-2 | -2 | -2 | +0 | +0 | -2 | | | |Matthew C. Kavanagh |-| -1 | | | | | || | | | | | | | | |Jasper Bryant-Greene |-| | | | | -1 | +1 | -1| | | | | -1 | | | | |Eric Coleman |-| -1 | +2 | | | | +1 | +1 |-1 | | | | | | | | |Christian Stocker |-| | | | | -1 | | -1 |+1 | | | | -1 | | | | |Stanislav Malyshev |-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | |Jared Williams |-| | | | | | || | +1 | | | | | | | |Jason Garber |-| | | | | | || | | | | | +1 | | | |Nicolas Bérard Nault |-| -2 | | | | | +2 | |+1 | | | | | | | | |Sara Golemon |-| | | +1 | | | || | | | | | | | | |Jacques Marneweck |*| -1 | -1 | +2 | -1 | -1 | -1 | -1 |-1 | -1 | +0 | -1 | -1 | +0 | | | |Sean Coates |-| | | +1 | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | ||-| | | | | | || | | | | | | | | |---------------------+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+sum (2 counts 2) | | -2 | +5 | +7 | -2 | -3 | +1 | -2 |-3 | -1 | -1 | 0 | -3 | -1 | | | |sum (2 counts 1) | | -2 | +3 | +4 | -2 | -3 | +2 | -2 |-2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | -3 | 0 | | | |sum (counting +/-) | | -1 | +4 | +5 | -1 | -1 | +2 | 0 |-1 | 0 | +1 | +2 | -1 | +1 | | | |========================================================================================================================Notes:
- I took
+2 as "likes"
+1 as "is fine with"
+0 as "can live with"
-1 as "dislikes"
-2 as "hates"
empty for "no comment, no opinion, don't care"
- Please don't enter anything other than these values!
- The "s" column stands for "self-filled". I compiled the current
table from the comments in this newsgroup, so perhaps I didn't
get their comments right.
- The operators : <- -> could make big problems with the parser.
More complaints to follow. *g*
- Feel free to add new suggestions to the right.
- If you add your name at the bottom, please copy the free line
so the next one also has a free one.
- Do only edit the votes in *your* line!
- Correct the sums if you post.
- Please post as attachment!

If some of the operators are definitely impossible to implement,
please put the headline of column in parentheses (as in "(<-)")
ans add a note why this operator can't be done (Hi Marcus *g*).

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit:http://www.php.net/unsub.php--
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To unsubscribe, visit:http://www.php.net/unsub.php--
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#5 Nov. 28, 2005 09:50:15

Stanislav M.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


OG>>BUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also about what you
OG>>would like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory whitespace would
OG>>be introduced for the ternary BUT this is very very bad.

If my vote is counted (not that I asked for it :) then I vote against all
funky syntax, present and future. :: is only thing that is obvious and
somehow connected to the world of PHP as we know it now.

--
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Products Engineer
http://www.zend.com/+972-3-6139665 ext.115

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#6 Nov. 28, 2005 13:53:33

Oliver G.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


Stanislav Malyshev schrieb:
> OG>>BUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also about what you
> OG>>would like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory whitespace would
> OG>>be introduced for the ternary BUT this is very very bad.
>
> If my vote is counted (not that I asked for it :) then I vote against all
> funky syntax, present and future. :: is only thing that is obvious and
> somehow connected to the world of PHP as we know it now.

Well, some people always keep throwing that already used symbols cannot
be used for other purposes. :: is used for resolving class scope. Well,
the tokenizer COULD be so smart as to look ahead but I still haven't
heard from any developer if the tokenizer is able to do that or if its
context only consists of "before the currently found symbol". And the of
course, multicontext symbols mean less performance (I guess). For the
proposed : and its conflict with the middle symbol of the ternary
operator the problem is somehow similar: If the tokenizer reads the ?
it's already clear that a ternary is "happening".

Examples:

$b=$a?c:d;

Currently this means "$b gets the value of constant c or d depending on
the value of $a". If : becomes the namespace operator and then this
symbol would ordinarily have a higher operator precedence and the
tokenizer would read "constant d in namespace c" and then not find the
middle : of the ternary hence throwing a parse error. This is obviously
very bad since such scripts might already exist. BUT if the tokenizer
would have a higher precedence for the middle ternary then this would
run as before. To use namespaces in the ternary one would the simply
force to put them in parentheses which is no big problem since such
cases might be EXTREMELY rare. This would work:

$b=$a?(c:d):(e:f);

but this would not:

$b=$a?c:d:e:f;

with an error of "; expected at the position of the second :" (if
ignoring namespaces there completely) or "; expected at the position of
the third;" (if namespaces kick in AFTER the middle ternary operator) or
something like that which would both be tolerable. The only question
that nobody answered until now: Is such a behaviour of the tokenizer
possible or do such contextual decisions not even happen until AFTER the
tokenizing process?

If it could be done this way then this would be the way to go since
everybody seems to like : and the only thing in the way is one extremely
rare case.

OLLi

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#7 Nov. 28, 2005 14:23:58

Ford, M.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


On 28 November 2005 09:50, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:

> > > BUT the discussion is not only about possibility but also about
> > > what you would like. The ":" for example would work if mandatory
> > > whitespace would be introduced for the ternary BUT this is very
> > > very bad.
>
> If my vote is counted (not that I asked for it :) then I vote against
> all funky syntax, present and future. :: is only thing that is
> obvious and somehow connected to the world of PHP as we know it now.


Wow! I go home early on a Friday, and come back to a veritable php-dev flood
in my Inbox! That must be the most active weekend since I started reading the
list!!

My point of view is similar to Stanislav's: any operator chosen should have
some echo of existing syntax -- this rules out the original suggestion of \ and
many of the suggested alternatives. I'm also completely against any solution
that introduces new enforced whitespace, however unlikely the construct -- that
just doesn't seem like "the PHP way".

The two existing "class to member" operators are :: and ->, so I'd be looking
at analogues of these. I'm not keen on :: itself performing double-duty here,
and I hate ::: and most of the repeated-character suggestions (%%, .., **,
etc.) -- especially as the single-character versions all have completely
unrelated meanings.

This leaves me looking for something not dissimilar to ->. It's a shame that
=> is already taken, as that would have done nicely. :> (or ::>), despite
their smiley-ness, are actually quite clever suggestions, containing echoes of
both :: and -> -- I'd be ok with either of these. Another possibility I
haven't seen offered, and that has strong echoes of ->, is ~>. I can't see any
conflicts here, it's sufficiently similar to be obviously related, but
sufficiently different to be easily distinguished.

What do people think?

(Space for flame here...)



Cheers!

Mike

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#8 Nov. 28, 2005 14:34:37

Stanislav M.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


OG>>Well, some people always keep throwing that already used symbols cannot
OG>>be used for other purposes. :: is used for resolving class scope. Well,

Well, namespace scope and class scope are close enough so that this mixing
up would be bearable (and regarding class resolution and namespace
resolution as the same operation is not an alien concept in OO world).

OG>>the tokenizer COULD be so smart as to look ahead but I still haven't

yacc can look one token ahead, AFAIR.

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Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Products Engineer
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#9 Nov. 28, 2005 15:41:12

Oliver G.
Registered: 2009-11-02
Reputation: +  0  -
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


Stanislav Malyshev schrieb:

> yacc can look one token ahead, AFAIR.

This could help for "::" (reading a name and seeing "Oh, one more ::, so
this is one more namespace"), but not for ":" (there the change of
operator precedence would still be needed). OK, now this would have to
be sorted out by some T_* guru ;-)

OLLi

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#10 Nov. 28, 2005 15:42:37

Israel A.
Registered: 2009-11-02
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[PHP-DEV] namespace separator poll, update


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-----Original Message-----
From: Oliver Grätz
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:40 AM
To: intern***@*ists.php.net
Subject: Re: namespace separator poll, update


Stanislav Malyshev schrieb:

> yacc can look one token ahead, AFAIR.

This could help for "::" (reading a name and seeing "Oh, one more ::, so this
is one more namespace"), but not for ":" (there the change of operator
precedence would still be needed). OK, now this would have to be sorted out by
some T_* guru ;-)

OLLi

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